I am coming to this discussion late, having just heard about all of it when I was at Wellesley last weekend. Been reading up on your posts and have some comments I want to add.
First let me give you a little background. I regard myself as transgender in a more general sense, ie not transitional. I have always had gender on my mind, though lacked any language for it at all until after college. During my college years (late 80s), gender as non binary was not on our radar. And one of my majors was women's studies! A few years after I graduated, Kate Bornstein released "Gender Outlaw..." which was a transformative book for me (and many others). I saw her perform a show called 'The Opposite Sex is Neither', which was also mind blowing. I had found other friends who also found themselves outside of the binary. Back then, our only language around this was tied to sexuality. Being a self IDed butch lesbian or femme was the available expression of non-traditional gender roles within the context of lesbian relationships, and even then, calling one's self butch or femme was often scorned and looked down upon. Transitioning to the opposite sex was certainly happening but it was not the right solution for all of us. The language and discussions were only just starting.
I let my internal discussions on the topic sort of lapse for a long while but have returned to it in the last couple of years. The language has evolved, as it hopefully will continue to do since it is a very fluid subject so I may get some of the current lingo wrong, but I am working on catching up. Back when I first found myself learning about this, transgender was a more umbrella term for anyone who felt outside of the 'traditional' binary gender system (I say traditional to mean this is how it presents in society today, not to imply that it is inherently correct). As I return to these discussions, I find that transgender now tends to be synonymous with transsexual so I find myself outside of the language again.
OK. All that put out there - to that end, I disagree with this line in your above post:
but sex and gender are inseparable ...
They are not to me, nor to all who wrestle with gender. My sex is female. I was born with female parts and still have those parts. I'm ok with having those parts. But my gender, how I express myself externally and regard myself internally, is a good bit more complicated than that. I have always known that I identify with a lot more traditionally (ie how society defines, for good or ill) male things than female things. I've always loathed women's clothing, and generally only buy mens clothing. Just feels better. Growing up in a fairly rural area, all of the girly stuff was always very foreign to me, the make up, hairstyles, earrings body language etc. Going though Wellesley was in many ways a boon to that end. Even though there was/is still plenty of stereotypical female stuff going on, I never felt pressured to cave into that stuff or do it, or made to feel lesser than or like a freak for not doing it.
I'd read about sex changes. Have long been curious about them, learned about them. I know a number of people who have or are taking that journey (both MTF and FTM). After much thinking, and more that is highly likely to come, I have determined that I am ok being female bodied but with an internal ID that is much more genderqueer, more masculine leaning. There's not much that could described as female or girly that I like or do, and certainly not all things defined as masculine or male are comfortable for me either despite leaning more strongly that way.
So my sex is female, and my gender is a lot more complicated than that. And it's ok for me that way. I have tremendous respect for those who do undertake a transition from one sex to another in order to be properly aligned inside and out, but that journey is not going to be necessary for everyone. So the two, sex and gender, are not the same.
I think what this illustrates is that gender really is such a dynamic topic and expression that language is hard to pin down to any absolutes at all. I think one of the challenges of ongoing gender discussion/debate/language evolution is finding ways for everyone to be and feel validated. I am really glad that this matter about Admissions interviewing is getting out in the open and being examined from multiple sides, in the office, in the college community etc. Thank you for putting your story out there.
I have other thoughts about your position on whether or not Wellesley can still call itself a women's college. I disagree with you on this count. I think it still is a women's college. Yes, clearly male students are graduating from the school. But there is still the vast majority of students who graduate with a self ID as a woman, whether by societal default (it's gonna happen, not everyone has or is willing to examine a non gender binary world), or after introspection upon learning more about the non binary gender spectrum. I think we do an enormous disservice to those women by stripping the descriptor of women's college away from Wellesley. There are, and long will be, students who apply BECAUSE it is a women's college. I do not think it can be up to a few students who are now living their lives more completely as themselves as male beings to change the school for the very many more who are women. Even considering the non binary gender spectrum, there will likely always be those who do wind up as men and women and not somewhere else on the spectrum. Wellesley's evolution will come as result of careful examination, discussion, etc before any change in descriptor becomes a formal thing. You might think of it as you do, but it is not up to one individual, or a handful, to change how other many many students and alumnae regard the school.
It also, to me, does remain both desirable and possible for a women's college to exist alongside of creating community for students who ultimately transition or find themselves outside of the binary. The reality of our world is still that women are undervalued, underpaid, etc etc. Ironically, the fact that Wellesley is a women's college was NOT a key point for me when I applied. But in hindsight, I am very very glad I attended. I definitely gained a lot of personal strength from the experience. Having had the co-ed high school experience that I did, I do not think for one minute that I would have gained the strength that I did in a co-ed college environment. The intrinsic value of the women's college environment for me is that there is no binary gender/sex competition, no having to prove one's self against male students for whom the decks are already stacked in favor at the start. Having that element removed from the equation DOES make a difference, is still valuable in today's society, and should remain available to those who wish to experience it. I remember a study done while I was there, with the class of 1988, IIRC. I may get the precise numbers wrong, but when polled as first years, something like 80% said it was a con that the school was a women's college. Asked the same question at graduation, the same number now said it was a pro that Wellesley is all women. There is enormous value here to the students and alumnae. Granted a lot of time has passed since that particular study, so it would be interesting to find out if the question has been posed since. I think that Wellesley has such a strong, vocal, and engaged alumnae community speaks to how valuable the experience it is across years and generations.
I also know that the women's college aspect was NOT right for some of my classmates, not because of gender. It just wasn't a good fit for them (nor is it going to be a good fit for every woman in general) There were no students that I am aware of who were considering or undergoing transition during my years there. I am glad that students can feel safe enough now to do so. And I can't help but wonder how my life would be different if current knowledge/language/discussions of gender had been happening while I was a student.
To me, the phrase that Wellesley admits women and graduates students says something different to me than to you. For me, that means that we are leaving Wellesley knowing that we can be more than 'just' women, we can be whole human beings, not limited by what society wants to dictate for women as lesser than. I'd be curious to know, if there is anyway to find out, how many students matriculate at Wellesley with the intention of transitioning. I know my knowledge of this is limited at this point in time, but my impression has been that students who come out as male often do so as part of their learning about gender during their college years, perhaps not having any idea about other ways to be regarding their gender during high school or earlier. I am very curious about this. I am also curious, to that end, why - if a student DOES know they want to transition to male in full body and spirit - would choose a women's college to attend as opposed to a co-ed school. I would hope it is because they would feel safer undergoing a transition there. More than anything, I want Wellesley to be a safe and welcoming place. I am encouraged that there is an active group which is working on all of this. I will be watching all of this unfold and will jump in however necessary to help push the dialogue into more examination, acceptance, understanding of how gender can be so much more than man/woman, male/female, and how all of our alumnae are valuable in 'selling' the college to prospective students.
I never have really felt comfortable being called woman or lady even though I knew that base on my physical sex those were the most common and applicable words. I felt, still do feel, like a bit of an outsider to all of that but at the same time, I embrace that it is in a small way part of me and part of what makes me a member of the Wellesley community. Please bear in mind, I am talking only about myself and not attempting to assign meaning to any of these words to any other individual.
This got a lot longer than I had expected - my apologies for that. I look forward to any discussion you would like to have on all of this.
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Date: 2011-05-06 04:57 pm (UTC)I am coming to this discussion late, having just heard about all of it when I was at Wellesley last weekend. Been reading up on your posts and have some comments I want to add.
First let me give you a little background. I regard myself as transgender in a more general sense, ie not transitional. I have always had gender on my mind, though lacked any language for it at all until after college. During my college years (late 80s), gender as non binary was not on our radar. And one of my majors was women's studies! A few years after I graduated, Kate Bornstein released "Gender Outlaw..." which was a transformative book for me (and many others). I saw her perform a show called 'The Opposite Sex is Neither', which was also mind blowing. I had found other friends who also found themselves outside of the binary. Back then, our only language around this was tied to sexuality. Being a self IDed butch lesbian or femme was the available expression of non-traditional gender roles within the context of lesbian relationships, and even then, calling one's self butch or femme was often scorned and looked down upon. Transitioning to the opposite sex was certainly happening but it was not the right solution for all of us. The language and discussions were only just starting.
I let my internal discussions on the topic sort of lapse for a long while but have returned to it in the last couple of years. The language has evolved, as it hopefully will continue to do since it is a very fluid subject so I may get some of the current lingo wrong, but I am working on catching up. Back when I first found myself learning about this, transgender was a more umbrella term for anyone who felt outside of the 'traditional' binary gender system (I say traditional to mean this is how it presents in society today, not to imply that it is inherently correct). As I return to these discussions, I find that transgender now tends to be synonymous with transsexual so I find myself outside of the language again.
OK. All that put out there - to that end, I disagree with this line in your above post:
but sex and gender are inseparable ...
They are not to me, nor to all who wrestle with gender. My sex is female. I was born with female parts and still have those parts. I'm ok with having those parts. But my gender, how I express myself externally and regard myself internally, is a good bit more complicated than that. I have always known that I identify with a lot more traditionally (ie how society defines, for good or ill) male things than female things. I've always loathed women's clothing, and generally only buy mens clothing. Just feels better. Growing up in a fairly rural area, all of the girly stuff was always very foreign to me, the make up, hairstyles, earrings body language etc. Going though Wellesley was in many ways a boon to that end. Even though there was/is still plenty of stereotypical female stuff going on, I never felt pressured to cave into that stuff or do it, or made to feel lesser than or like a freak for not doing it.
I'd read about sex changes. Have long been curious about them, learned about them. I know a number of people who have or are taking that journey (both MTF and FTM). After much thinking, and more that is highly likely to come, I have determined that I am ok being female bodied but with an internal ID that is much more genderqueer, more masculine leaning. There's not much that could described as female or girly that I like or do, and certainly not all things defined as masculine or male are comfortable for me either despite leaning more strongly that way.
So my sex is female, and my gender is a lot more complicated than that. And it's ok for me that way. I have tremendous respect for those who do undertake a transition from one sex to another in order to be properly aligned inside and out, but that journey is not going to be necessary for everyone. So the two, sex and gender, are not the same.
I think what this illustrates is that gender really is such a dynamic topic and expression that language is hard to pin down to any absolutes at all. I think one of the challenges of ongoing gender discussion/debate/language evolution is finding ways for everyone to be and feel validated. I am really glad that this matter about Admissions interviewing is getting out in the open and being examined from multiple sides, in the office, in the college community etc. Thank you for putting your story out there.
I have other thoughts about your position on whether or not Wellesley can still call itself a women's college. I disagree with you on this count. I think it still is a women's college. Yes, clearly male students are graduating from the school. But there is still the vast majority of students who graduate with a self ID as a woman, whether by societal default (it's gonna happen, not everyone has or is willing to examine a non gender binary world), or after introspection upon learning more about the non binary gender spectrum. I think we do an enormous disservice to those women by stripping the descriptor of women's college away from Wellesley. There are, and long will be, students who apply BECAUSE it is a women's college. I do not think it can be up to a few students who are now living their lives more completely as themselves as male beings to change the school for the very many more who are women. Even considering the non binary gender spectrum, there will likely always be those who do wind up as men and women and not somewhere else on the spectrum. Wellesley's evolution will come as result of careful examination, discussion, etc before any change in descriptor becomes a formal thing. You might think of it as you do, but it is not up to one individual, or a handful, to change how other many many students and alumnae regard the school.
It also, to me, does remain both desirable and possible for a women's college to exist alongside of creating community for students who ultimately transition or find themselves outside of the binary. The reality of our world is still that women are undervalued, underpaid, etc etc. Ironically, the fact that Wellesley is a women's college was NOT a key point for me when I applied. But in hindsight, I am very very glad I attended. I definitely gained a lot of personal strength from the experience. Having had the co-ed high school experience that I did, I do not think for one minute that I would have gained the strength that I did in a co-ed college environment. The intrinsic value of the women's college environment for me is that there is no binary gender/sex competition, no having to prove one's self against male students for whom the decks are already stacked in favor at the start. Having that element removed from the equation DOES make a difference, is still valuable in today's society, and should remain available to those who wish to experience it. I remember a study done while I was there, with the class of 1988, IIRC. I may get the precise numbers wrong, but when polled as first years, something like 80% said it was a con that the school was a women's college. Asked the same question at graduation, the same number now said it was a pro that Wellesley is all women. There is enormous value here to the students and alumnae. Granted a lot of time has passed since that particular study, so it would be interesting to find out if the question has been posed since. I think that Wellesley has such a strong, vocal, and engaged alumnae community speaks to how valuable the experience it is across years and generations.
I also know that the women's college aspect was NOT right for some of my classmates, not because of gender. It just wasn't a good fit for them (nor is it going to be a good fit for every woman in general) There were no students that I am aware of who were considering or undergoing transition during my years there. I am glad that students can feel safe enough now to do so. And I can't help but wonder how my life would be different if current knowledge/language/discussions of gender had been happening while I was a student.
To me, the phrase that Wellesley admits women and graduates students says something different to me than to you. For me, that means that we are leaving Wellesley knowing that we can be more than 'just' women, we can be whole human beings, not limited by what society wants to dictate for women as lesser than. I'd be curious to know, if there is anyway to find out, how many students matriculate at Wellesley with the intention of transitioning. I know my knowledge of this is limited at this point in time, but my impression has been that students who come out as male often do so as part of their learning about gender during their college years, perhaps not having any idea about other ways to be regarding their gender during high school or earlier. I am very curious about this. I am also curious, to that end, why - if a student DOES know they want to transition to male in full body and spirit - would choose a women's college to attend as opposed to a co-ed school. I would hope it is because they would feel safer undergoing a transition there. More than anything, I want Wellesley to be a safe and welcoming place. I am encouraged that there is an active group which is working on all of this. I will be watching all of this unfold and will jump in however necessary to help push the dialogue into more examination, acceptance, understanding of how gender can be so much more than man/woman, male/female, and how all of our alumnae are valuable in 'selling' the college to prospective students.
I never have really felt comfortable being called woman or lady even though I knew that base on my physical sex those were the most common and applicable words. I felt, still do feel, like a bit of an outsider to all of that but at the same time, I embrace that it is in a small way part of me and part of what makes me a member of the Wellesley community. Please bear in mind, I am talking only about myself and not attempting to assign meaning to any of these words to any other individual.
This got a lot longer than I had expected - my apologies for that. I look forward to any discussion you would like to have on all of this.
Thanks, Tim.